Good reading

sb1227 · Post by **sb1227** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:21 am

So if you ever want to twiat your brain into knots, try reading a couple of good articles on Cyanobacteria. For a real kicker, add an article on Dinoflagellates.

Then distinguish the differences between them.

Maybe I'll just watch TV for a day or two to clear my brain.

Post by **snoopdog** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:23 am

On a subject like that I normally do not want to know how it is made or what it is made of. My main thing is how to get rid of it

sb1227 · Post by **sb1227** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:33 am

It really started after Ivan when I lost everything in the 90 FW due to that nasty Cyano problem and I wondered if a "red tide" thing was possible in fresh water. It went downhill after that.

It's come up again recently with the Dino/Cyano issues people are having. So now I'm back to overthinking again. It gets painful after a while though.

Fishfood · Post by **Fishfood** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:46 am

Well then I'm sorry to have sent you those links. We could post them here for everyone to read.

From my understanding the cyano is a bit easier to treat, but the dinos have cause people to take down their entire tank...

I think both did me in.

Amphiprion · Post by **Amphiprion** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:47 am

sb1227 wrote:It really started after Ivan when I lost everything in the 90 FW due to that nasty Cyano problem and I wondered if a "red tide" thing was possible in fresh water. It went downhill after that.

It's come up again recently with the Dino/Cyano issues people are having. So now I'm back to overthinking again. It gets painful after a while though.

It's fun, though

. Dinoflagellates are something all unto themselves--drastically different from much of anything else. And they are all still polyphyletic, so they have yet to be classified properly. Also, something that is mind numbing is the Archaea. Talk about radically different. Their cellular membranes are bound by ether linkages instead of ester linkages (literally every other living thing uses ester ones)

. It just gets weirder from there, since they thrive in the harshest environments on earth--some can't even live in temps below 100C!

Fishfood · Post by **Fishfood** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:51 am

Here is a little info that I had sent sue that I found last night... This is just the tip of the iceberg.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/eb/index.php

Post by **snoopdog** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:29 am

My head just exploded.

DrHank · Post by **DrHank** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:58 am

I tend to agree with snoopdog. Not something that someone prone to headaches should attempt. An article on safe methods to eradicate unwanted dinoflagelates would be much more helpful.

Fishfood · Post by **Fishfood** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:07 am

Thats the problem.... there isn't any. The best I can do is find a few threads from RC that seem to go no where. It seems that most people end up losing most of their inverts first and then some fish, like I did.

Here is one that I've been following that might look promissing in the end, but most other treads come up empty.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... did=988473

Amphiprion · Post by **Amphiprion** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:38 pm

There was actually a small 10 gallon tank that I had to deal with at work (B&B) that, when first set up, was overrun with dinoflagellates. I even looked at them under a scope to confirm it and to rule out cyanobacteria (though there was some present). It had been chronically occurring because, unbeknownst to me, someone had been actively moving the sandbed around, or at least that was my theory. Anyway, an extremely proactive water change schedule ended the bloom entirely (even with the sand stirring, which I later had stopped). Roughly 50% 2-3 times per week eradicated it (and diluted any toxins), along with carbon, but obviously this wouldn't be very practical for us folks with larger (and much larger) tanks. I really don't have much of a suggestion for those of us with tanks that would make this method completely impractical other than to wait out the problem, which seems to work sometimes, but usually not soon enough. Some have recommnded raising pH, which is not really effective at all. Some people claim that antibiotics work, but I think this claim is ridiculous (how can you kill something with antibiotics that is not a bacterium?). I think the people in those cases just have a cyanobacterial bloom misidentified as dinoflagellates.

Fishfood · Post by **Fishfood** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:53 pm

some also suggest high alkalinity, high specific gravity, low specific gravity, no light for x amount of days, etc.

The individual who started that thread i posted from RC has a bare bottom sps tank that has been up for 6 yrs and he has been battling what he says is dyno for a few months I guess. Someone suggested that a Seachem product might work. I'm not sure of the product off the top of my head but I'm following that thread to see the outcome.

I have what I believe is both cyano(red slime) and the dino, thick snotty grayish black stuff that gets air bubbles trapped in it. I turned my lights off for about a week a month or so ago and it helped a lot, and I thought I beat they dino, but not the cyano. Its back in force. My tank is coming down for a while so i can cook the rock and start over. I'm not sure if this is the best route but its the one i'm taking. I keep losing snails and my scarlet hermits daily. You can see they are all lethargic.

DrHank · Post by **DrHank** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:42 pm

I suppose that large volume water changes may remove them from the tank (as long as they are primarily in the substrate or in suspension). I wonder if a couple of slow passes through a good UV sterilizer would zap them. Something to think about I suppose.

Fishfood · Post by **Fishfood** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:58 pm

it might get those suspended in the water. The problem I found was the cyano can be syphoned up fairly easily, but can be difficult on the rocks. The dino on the other hand has to be scrubbed from the rock or the wall of the tank. Its a lot more solid, almost spongie like sometimes. I syphoned it off the wall of the tank but it required using the hose like a scrub brush and it left behind a lot.

There seems to be a lot less people out there having dino issues than cyano and when looking for a fix most times I stumble upon people who never can clear it up and lose everything or one day it is just gone and they don't know why.

sb1227 · Post by **sb1227** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:41 pm

That's why it's so interesting, in a kind of sicko way. I went thru this last summer with my 75. I began to wonder after talking to Fishfood if my problem had been Dinoflagellates instead of the Cyanobacteria I thought it was. But I didn't lose any fish or inverts, BUT, I was running carbon and eventually cuprisorb which may have removed enough toxins. So after reading I came to the question of whether one could actually tell Dino's from Cyano without a microscope. Does it matter which it really was? No.

I did find it interesting that they were both actually flagellates, which I assume is how they move. Back to my question, they are so close it seems (from my novice reading) how can one be classified as a bacteria? Single celled? Multi celled? What they eat for breakfast? Maybe I don't really need to know, not being a scientist...

Fishfood, thanks for the food for thought, although I had a nice break from it for awhile.

I really do find it fascinating.

Andrew, my dad was telling me they had a huge problem in the heavy water systems in Nuclear Reactors. Being a microbiologist, he got a real kick out of listening to the ideas on how to get rid of them. That water is incredibly rdioactive, but they seem to like it.

sb1227 · Post by **sb1227** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:43 pm

My head just exploded.

Sorry about your head. I hate it when that happens.....