180 Gallon Family Project...

tswtrskier56 · Post by **tswtrskier56** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:16 pm

Hello everyone, my wife and I are starting a new project tank...180 gallons, 75g DIY Sump/Refugium, and all custom built cabinetry. So far we have went to pickup the tank and stand setup, ordered the lights, recieved the RO/DI 100 gpd, went to Lowe's and spent a shitload of money on plumbing, got everything except for a few couplings, and the bulkheads...wish they sold those at lowe's!! Anyways, we are taking our time in setting everything up, putting it in our livingroom so when you walk in, BAM!! I monster tank!!! So like I said, we are taking our time in setting up, dont want to go too fast, but dont want to drag our feet either...Still need a few items, and any suggestions on where to get them would be greatly appreciated..Need a protein skimmer, some pumps, etc..

tswtrskier56 · Post by **tswtrskier56** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:43 pm

Oh, I forgot to mention what lights I have...running 4 400 watt metal halide with independant ballasts, 4 36" 80watt T5 Actinic 03, and 16 blue led moon lights. I need a skimmer and a mag 24 still, if anyone has something for sale pm me. thanks!

Amphiprion · Post by **Amphiprion** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:27 pm

Wow, that looks nice

. I bet you're excited about that one. You've got some killer equipment on there, too. Have you decided on reflectors for the halides or how you are going to provide circulation (in addition to the mag 24)?

tswtrskier56 · Post by **tswtrskier56** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:20 pm

Doing a closed loop system, with a mag 12, havent got the mag 24 yet, actually thinking of going with a 18 instead, i think 24 would be a bit much. The lighting is a retrofit kit, so all the reflectors are included. I need a good skimmer with a pump, so if anyone knows anyone selling a good skimmer or pumps let me know!

Fishfood · Post by **Fishfood** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:41 pm

I sent you a PM about your 47 gal tank.

Amphiprion · Post by **Amphiprion** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:43 pm

Can I talk you out of doing a closed loop with a mag pump? They are not really suited for circulation pumps--they are better suited for moderate pressure applications and for returns. I would look into sequence (rather, the series with the dart, barracuda, etc.) or ampmaster pumps for circulation purposes. I think a dart would work well for a closed loop on that tank. Maybe even the next size up. These pumps are better in that they are suited for circulation and less for pressure (though these brands do have more pressure rated pumps). That way you will get better overall circulation, not to mention that they are quieter than a mag.

Fishfood · Post by **Fishfood** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:58 pm

Amphiprion wrote:Can I talk you out of doing a closed loop with a mag pump? They are not really suited for circulation pumps--they are better suited for moderate pressure applications and for returns. I would look into sequence (rather, the series with the dart, barracuda, etc.) or ampmaster pumps for circulation purposes. I think a dart would work well for a closed loop on that tank. Maybe even the next size up. These pumps are better in that they are suited for circulation and less for pressure (though these brands do have more pressure rated pumps). That way you will get better overall circulation, not to mention that they are quieter than a mag.

I'll second this and suggest a sequence as well. I'd go at least one up from the dart. I have a dart on my 135 and as it works well, although I wish I had more flow.

tswtrskier56 · Post by **tswtrskier56** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:31 pm

Thanks guys, I think im going to run a mag drive in the sump, I have a MAK 4 external pump for the closed loop. It is a 1200 gph pump that seems to be pretty quiet. I also got some kind of flow multipliers for the returns. Dont know exactly what they are called, but they do the job. Still need a good return pump, looking for 1200 to 1800 gph pump...

Amphiprion · Post by **Amphiprion** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:19 pm

You still aren't really getting the volume I'd like to see you have. While you did get a pressure rated pump for your closed loop, it is relatively low volume. I am assuming you are referring to eductors, right? They don't increase flow, they actually decrease mass flow--as a tradeoff, they simply increase velocity. That is ok, but it won't be as good as mass volume flow.

tswtrskier56 · Post by **tswtrskier56** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:00 am

Yeah I have 2 eductors, looking for one more. What can I do to increase the flow rate? I have the closed loop setup with 2 drains and 3 returns, the main sump is setup with 2 drains and 2 returns. The closed loop is all 3/4 while the main sump setup is 1 1/2 drains and 3/4 returns. What kind of setup do you recommend?

Amphiprion · Post by **Amphiprion** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:40 am

Wow, only 3/4", huh. I didn't know that. That is sort of a common mistake people make when drilling closed loops. If anything, your return for the sump should have been about 3/4"-1" (drain diameter is fine) and the closed loop should have ideally all been the larger 1.5 inch, but a minimum of 1" (you can reduce it at the last second for certain wavemaking devices or extra outlets). There's no need to jet water through the sump, so a huge flow rate isn't needed--a big flow rate also limits the effectiveness of skimmer processing. That is where you use a closed loop to compensate for the "lack" of flow that is going through the sump. For example, in my 75, I have around 500 gph going through the sump (the pump is putting off a bit more than that, but the return is T'd into a couple reactors), but with powerheads I have about 10,000 gph. Granted, my flow is somewhat overkill (corals like it though

), but you should still be getting more flow in yours than that. The only thing you really can do at this point due to the diameter restriction is do what you are doing now and use the eductors (better idea) or look for an even higher head pump to force more pressure through--the latter of which gets expensive, both initially and in energy in the long run. For the eductors, you may want to look online for "penductors." I have seen them and they add an impressive amount of velocity and pressure to the stream. One word of warning with the eductors, though, is that you get a narrow concentrated stream. Depending upon how many you have, it can get difficult to position corals and keep sand in place.

tswtrskier56 · Post by **tswtrskier56** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:30 pm

I understand, hind sight is as they say 20/20. All of the people we have talked to about the closed loop system have said to use 3/4", this is all new to me and my wife, we have had several tanks, but this is the first large tank with a sump and all that. So mistakes will happen!! We are trying to go slow, but so far it seems very slow!!! For the closed loop system we are going to use the MAK-4. 1200 gph pump, do you think we should still use some powerheads as well? we were trying to do away with powerheads by using lockline and the penductors. Also, what size return pump should we get? I was thinking about the Mag 12 or Mag 18. I have to use a submersible pump, well dont have to, but dont want to drill any more holes. So, any advice is always helpful....thanks again!!!!

Amphiprion · Post by **Amphiprion** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:59 pm

You really don't need a huge sump turnover. I think a mag 12 or 18 would be fine. If you want to run other things off of the return, then spring for the 18.

As far as powerheads go, that would help you increase total volume, but if you don't want them in there, don't put them in. The penductors and other eductors will work, but they are admittedly more difficult to work with, in my opinion, for the reasons I mentioned before. You'll just have to be judicious with the return positions and where you place corals in relation to the stream of flow.

The problem with all 3/4" plumbing on the closed loop is that it absolutely kills the mass flow. For example, you MAK-4 pushes 1200 gph at a certain head pressure given the adequate diameter of pipe which is probably 1.5" or whatever the manufacturer recommends. To avoid this, you use the recommended diameter and reduce as close to the end (that is, the part where the water actually exits the pipe) as possible. What you can do in the meantime is go ahead and use 1.5" diameter and only reduce it the instant it enters the 3/4" bulkheads. That would at least give you some added flow.

tswtrskier56 · Post by **tswtrskier56** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:19 pm

The Mak 4 has 3/4 input and 3/4 outputs, thats why we went with 3/4. I was planning to use it for my return pump, thats why we went with 3/4 on all the return stuff as well. I am looking at buying a Danner Mag 36, does anyone know if this is a safe pump to use for saltwater? The only info i can find says that it is a pond pump...any suggestions? It has 1" outputs, so i was going to run 1" pipe up to the bulkheads and reduce from there.

Amphiprion · Post by **Amphiprion** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:06 pm

the mag 36 is safe to use for saltwater. A lot of these pumps have smaller outlets than the diameter pipe recommended. That is because it actually acts to throttle the pump a bit to keep it in the proper ranges, etc. They wouldn't run as effectively without that. That still doesn't mean you should use that same diameter tubing--at least not if you actually want to run what the pump is rated for. Like I said, it's fine that the bulkheads are 3/4", but I would make the plumbing up to spec (should be included in manufacturer's recommendations) and only reduce it when it hits the bulkhead. Just use the appropriate size coupling plus a female pipe threaded reducing bushing to convert from the 3/4" or 1" outlet to the 1.25-1.5" pipe (whichever is recommended).